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	<title>Comments on: I don&#8217;t trust me</title>
	<atom:link href="http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/</link>
	<description>Software development, testing, and techie life</description>
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		<title>By: Chad Myers</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-75</guid>
		<description>@Anonymous Jack:

I take your lack of any argument to the contrary as implicit agreement with the subject matter. Otherwise, I am embarrassed for you due to your lack of any argument to the contrary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Anonymous Jack:</p>
<p>I take your lack of any argument to the contrary as implicit agreement with the subject matter. Otherwise, I am embarrassed for you due to your lack of any argument to the contrary.</p>
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		<title>By: jack</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator>jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-74</guid>
		<description>you know, you sound like a dogmatist posing as a skeptic.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you know, you sound like a dogmatist posing as a skeptic.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Batum</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Batum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-73</guid>
		<description>bogardj:
I read my way through James&#039; diary years ago, and then somehow managed to completely forget about it. I had no idea that he had written a book, so cheers for that!

chad:
I understand now, I think I made some incorrect assumptions. I too hope that you get the chance to blog profusely about your experiences!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bogardj:<br />
I read my way through James&#8217; diary years ago, and then somehow managed to completely forget about it. I had no idea that he had written a book, so cheers for that!</p>
<p>chad:<br />
I understand now, I think I made some incorrect assumptions. I too hope that you get the chance to blog profusely about your experiences!</p>
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		<title>By: chadmyers</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-72</link>
		<dc:creator>chadmyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-72</guid>
		<description>@Paul:
Unfortunately, I haven&#039;t worked at a place that did all of these things. Well, I guess there is some fortune because I was able to see clearly how that decision (to not use XYZ) resulted in a detriment to the project and limited our success, or caused maintenance problems, etc.

The new gig I&#039;m going to in March should have all of these things to some extent or another (hopefully a great extent) and so I hope to blog profusely about how well things work in contrast to my current gig which has almost none of these things, sadly.

The first, most important thing is that everyone has to WANT the project to succeed. Then it&#039;s just a matter of persuading them and proving that certain practices (which, for some reason seem to go against conventional wisdom, even though they seem so obviously efficient and right) actually pay off in dividends.

Sadly, I have worked on a number of projects where many of the people involved on the project were more concerned with political points and vendettas than accomplishing the project.

I have been successful in persuading incremental change in several organizations. It seems that it is easiest when they have gone on for several years using no methodology or some sort of quasi-abortive waterfall and are so desperate for something, that they are willing to try anything. I have seen these organizations be very successful at implementing the processes I&#039;ve described above because they are willing to drop what they thought they knew and try something that works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Paul:<br />
Unfortunately, I haven&#8217;t worked at a place that did all of these things. Well, I guess there is some fortune because I was able to see clearly how that decision (to not use XYZ) resulted in a detriment to the project and limited our success, or caused maintenance problems, etc.</p>
<p>The new gig I&#8217;m going to in March should have all of these things to some extent or another (hopefully a great extent) and so I hope to blog profusely about how well things work in contrast to my current gig which has almost none of these things, sadly.</p>
<p>The first, most important thing is that everyone has to WANT the project to succeed. Then it&#8217;s just a matter of persuading them and proving that certain practices (which, for some reason seem to go against conventional wisdom, even though they seem so obviously efficient and right) actually pay off in dividends.</p>
<p>Sadly, I have worked on a number of projects where many of the people involved on the project were more concerned with political points and vendettas than accomplishing the project.</p>
<p>I have been successful in persuading incremental change in several organizations. It seems that it is easiest when they have gone on for several years using no methodology or some sort of quasi-abortive waterfall and are so desperate for something, that they are willing to try anything. I have seen these organizations be very successful at implementing the processes I&#8217;ve described above because they are willing to drop what they thought they knew and try something that works.</p>
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		<title>By: Jimmy Bogard</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimmy Bogard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-71</guid>
		<description>Two references:

http://jamesshore.com/Change-Diary/

http://jamesshore.com/Agile-Book/

Becoming a change agent isn&#039;t easy.  That&#039;s when you start needing to look at persuasion books or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two references:</p>
<p><a href="http://jamesshore.com/Change-Diary/" rel="nofollow">http://jamesshore.com/Change-Diary/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://jamesshore.com/Agile-Book/" rel="nofollow">http://jamesshore.com/Agile-Book/</a></p>
<p>Becoming a change agent isn&#8217;t easy.  That&#8217;s when you start needing to look at persuasion books or something.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Batum</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-70</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Batum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 19:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-70</guid>
		<description>Chad. let me try to put it another way:
At the beginning of the article you talked about developing using old-style waterfall-esque processes (lets call this point A). Then you started describing an entirely different set of processes that you have personally found to be effective (lets call this point B). I would say that very close to all of those processes fall into agile camp and these are concepts that I have already read a great deal about. Nonetheless I enjoyed the approach you took and am interested in reading more, specifically about how you got from point A to point B. Was it a gradual process, or was it sudden? Did you have to switch teams/projects/companies to get there? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad. let me try to put it another way:<br />
At the beginning of the article you talked about developing using old-style waterfall-esque processes (lets call this point A). Then you started describing an entirely different set of processes that you have personally found to be effective (lets call this point B). I would say that very close to all of those processes fall into agile camp and these are concepts that I have already read a great deal about. Nonetheless I enjoyed the approach you took and am interested in reading more, specifically about how you got from point A to point B. Was it a gradual process, or was it sudden? Did you have to switch teams/projects/companies to get there? </p>
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		<title>By: chadmyers</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>chadmyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-69</guid>
		<description>@Paul:

What would you like for bloggers like us to write? In my experience, it&#039;s always been very subjective, the arguments always different, the reasons/motives/whatever for sticking with  BDUF and hurry-up-and-work-100/wk-later are different in each situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Paul:</p>
<p>What would you like for bloggers like us to write? In my experience, it&#8217;s always been very subjective, the arguments always different, the reasons/motives/whatever for sticking with  BDUF and hurry-up-and-work-100/wk-later are different in each situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Batum</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Batum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-68</guid>
		<description>Chad, your article touches on many processes, not just TDD. Completely forget TDD for a second and just consider the concept of automated code based tests - I&#039;m sure it would come as no surprise that I have worked on projects that have shipped with no such tests or a pittance (~2% code coverage). You joked &quot;surely they&#039;re not suggesting you do NO testing&quot; but if you are talking about programmed tests then people are suggesting this every day, all around the world.

I guess the essence of my point is that its great to discuss software process but ultimately its usefulness is restricted by the very nature of how hard it is to CHANGE software process. No doubt this is why there is a healthy market for Agile consultants. It has been my observation that for every 10 blog posts or articles that focus on improved software process there is but one that tackles the tricky problem of getting in there and changing the existing process. 

You could say that my original comment was an effort to move us closer to improving on that 10:1 ratio.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad, your article touches on many processes, not just TDD. Completely forget TDD for a second and just consider the concept of automated code based tests &#8211; I&#8217;m sure it would come as no surprise that I have worked on projects that have shipped with no such tests or a pittance (~2% code coverage). You joked &#8220;surely they&#8217;re not suggesting you do NO testing&#8221; but if you are talking about programmed tests then people are suggesting this every day, all around the world.</p>
<p>I guess the essence of my point is that its great to discuss software process but ultimately its usefulness is restricted by the very nature of how hard it is to CHANGE software process. No doubt this is why there is a healthy market for Agile consultants. It has been my observation that for every 10 blog posts or articles that focus on improved software process there is but one that tackles the tricky problem of getting in there and changing the existing process. </p>
<p>You could say that my original comment was an effort to move us closer to improving on that 10:1 ratio.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad Myers</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-67</guid>
		<description>@Paul  That type of pairing is called &#039;ping-pong pairing&#039;.  There are other forms of pairing, but it can be difficult because you must resist the urge to be a keyboard hog. With ping-pong, you can see about how long it&#039;ll be until your next turn comes up so you don&#039;t start mentally checking out.

As for TDD, some people are opposed to it, but I haven&#039;t ever figure out why and they never seem to have good arguments (&#039;It takes too long!&#039; -- as opposed to testing AFTER development? Or... surely they&#039;re not suggesting you do NO testing, riiiiiggghhhttt???).

It doesn&#039;t necessarily require full buy-in from everyone on the team (as long as you&#039;re OK with &#039;that guy&#039; committing code with no tests, or poor tests).  It has been my experience, though, that anyone good at doing Test-After-Development LOVES or is very interested in the idea of TDD, but they just don&#039;t know how to get started or are discouraged by the fact no one else is interested in helping him/her.

I&#039;ve found two types of people when it comes to testing those doing/interested-in TDD, and those who don&#039;t do testing.   I know there are some staunch TAD&#039;ers out there who swear that TAD is better, but I haven&#039;t met them personally and haven&#039;t seen their work, so I can&#039;t comment one way or the other.

I have, however, seen TDD done effectively and it&#039;s always helpful.  I&#039;ve never seen a project HARMED by TDD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Paul  That type of pairing is called &#8216;ping-pong pairing&#8217;.  There are other forms of pairing, but it can be difficult because you must resist the urge to be a keyboard hog. With ping-pong, you can see about how long it&#8217;ll be until your next turn comes up so you don&#8217;t start mentally checking out.</p>
<p>As for TDD, some people are opposed to it, but I haven&#8217;t ever figure out why and they never seem to have good arguments (&#8216;It takes too long!&#8217; &#8212; as opposed to testing AFTER development? Or&#8230; surely they&#8217;re not suggesting you do NO testing, riiiiiggghhhttt???).</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t necessarily require full buy-in from everyone on the team (as long as you&#8217;re OK with &#8216;that guy&#8217; committing code with no tests, or poor tests).  It has been my experience, though, that anyone good at doing Test-After-Development LOVES or is very interested in the idea of TDD, but they just don&#8217;t know how to get started or are discouraged by the fact no one else is interested in helping him/her.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve found two types of people when it comes to testing those doing/interested-in TDD, and those who don&#8217;t do testing.   I know there are some staunch TAD&#8217;ers out there who swear that TAD is better, but I haven&#8217;t met them personally and haven&#8217;t seen their work, so I can&#8217;t comment one way or the other.</p>
<p>I have, however, seen TDD done effectively and it&#8217;s always helpful.  I&#8217;ve never seen a project HARMED by TDD.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad Myers</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/01/26/i-don-t-trust-me.aspx#comment-66</guid>
		<description>@Joe trust vs. expect. I see your point, it&#039;s probably a good idea, but I think that trust actually catches my intention better. I need something that has the same connotation, without some of the negative connotations.  &#039;Expect&#039; doesn&#039;t capture it right, in my mind at least.  How &#039;bout &#039;Rely&#039;? As in, &quot;I can&#039;t rely on me/you/anyone&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joe trust vs. expect. I see your point, it&#8217;s probably a good idea, but I think that trust actually catches my intention better. I need something that has the same connotation, without some of the negative connotations.  &#8216;Expect&#8217; doesn&#8217;t capture it right, in my mind at least.  How &#8217;bout &#8216;Rely&#8217;? As in, &#8220;I can&#8217;t rely on me/you/anyone&#8221;?</p>
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