Comments on: Introducing Quality-first Notions Into an Existing Team http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team/ Software development, testing, and techie life Thu, 08 Mar 2012 22:19:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Dale Smith http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team/#comment-305 Dale Smith Sat, 31 May 2008 21:48:12 +0000 /blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team.aspx#comment-305 Hi Chad - your post inspired me to ask folks on my team what they thought about developer testing, since we just introduced the concept recently. Here's what some <a href="http://creedcultcode.blogspot.com/2008/05/introducing-developer-testing-into.html">developers</a> thought, and what a <a href="http://creedcultcode.blogspot.com/2008/05/introducing-developer-testing-into_31.html">project manager</a> thought. Hi Chad – your post inspired me to ask folks on my team what they thought about developer testing, since we just introduced the concept recently. Here’s what some developers thought, and what a project manager thought.

]]> By: Bill Barry http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team/#comment-304 Bill Barry Wed, 28 May 2008 14:52:16 +0000 /blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team.aspx#comment-304 It is like I am reading my own thoughts! A couple of notes though: It isn't about TDD. It is about a functioning team that works well together and efficiently delivers exceptional software on a consistent basis. TDD is merely a means to the end (whether or not it is the best path is up in the air; it certainly works). This is why I put emphasis in code review and refactoring sessions. Code review gives the developers something to be proud of and refactoring sessions bring the team closer together. Both lead to a more maintainable codebase and more satisfied customers. On the third section: If you aren't noticing the improvements, change. That is what agile is all about. Make sure you keep track of what you are doing and regularly reflect on it so that you have the opportunity to spot chances for improving. If TDD really seems to be holding you back, scale down on it: maybe you don't need to mock all the interfaces, you can always create dumb stubs instead (sometimes it works better); perhaps you are finding it difficult to decouple your code (maybe you don't have any tests and you are afraid to touch it because it works), simply go somewhere else (no one said you need to rewrite the whole application) and make small stabs at it. It is like I am reading my own thoughts!

A couple of notes though:
It isn’t about TDD. It is about a functioning team that works well together and efficiently delivers exceptional software on a consistent basis. TDD is merely a means to the end (whether or not it is the best path is up in the air; it certainly works). This is why I put emphasis in code review and refactoring sessions. Code review gives the developers something to be proud of and refactoring sessions bring the team closer together. Both lead to a more maintainable codebase and more satisfied customers.

On the third section: If you aren’t noticing the improvements, change. That is what agile is all about. Make sure you keep track of what you are doing and regularly reflect on it so that you have the opportunity to spot chances for improving. If TDD really seems to be holding you back, scale down on it: maybe you don’t need to mock all the interfaces, you can always create dumb stubs instead (sometimes it works better); perhaps you are finding it difficult to decouple your code (maybe you don’t have any tests and you are afraid to touch it because it works), simply go somewhere else (no one said you need to rewrite the whole application) and make small stabs at it.

]]> By: Ben Scheirman http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team/#comment-303 Ben Scheirman Wed, 28 May 2008 13:03:16 +0000 /blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team.aspx#comment-303 I totally agree with the notion of questioning everything and always striving to improve, even if what you're seeing is success (in your eyes). However, when you phrase it like "are you REALLY doing well? Really?" it makes you sound like a snake-oil salesman. This is actually true in practice when trying to sell TDD to someone who doesn't think they need it. Sometimes I find it best to start small and convince them once they experience some pain that could have been alleviated with TDD. "You can't heal what you can't feel" -- my CST said this and I find that it is so true. I totally agree with the notion of questioning everything and always striving to improve, even if what you’re seeing is success (in your eyes).

However, when you phrase it like “are you REALLY doing well? Really?” it makes you sound like a snake-oil salesman. This is actually true in practice when trying to sell TDD to someone who doesn’t think they need it.

Sometimes I find it best to start small and convince them once they experience some pain that could have been alleviated with TDD.

“You can’t heal what you can’t feel” — my CST said this and I find that it is so true.

]]> By: Chad Myers http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team/#comment-302 Chad Myers Tue, 27 May 2008 19:23:57 +0000 /blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team.aspx#comment-302 @Tucker: Don't rewrite. Pick out small victories, like some new features that you can introduce new micro-designs that don't impact the system too much. Maybe there's a side-project or an opportunity for a utility/tool that you can use the new stuff on. Working with legacy code is tricky, and there are several strategies for it. Michael Feathers has a great book about working with legacy code (search on his name). Also, LosTechies bloggers Jimmy Bogard and Ray Houston did a short screencast about refactoring some legacy code. You can check it out here: http://www.lostechies.com/blogs/jimmy_bogard/archive/2008/05/06/pablotv-eliminating-static-dependencies-screencast.aspx @Tucker: Don’t rewrite. Pick out small victories, like some new features that you can introduce new micro-designs that don’t impact the system too much. Maybe there’s a side-project or an opportunity for a utility/tool that you can use the new stuff on.

Working with legacy code is tricky, and there are several strategies for it. Michael Feathers has a great book about working with legacy code (search on his name).

Also, LosTechies bloggers Jimmy Bogard and Ray Houston did a short screencast about refactoring some legacy code. You can check it out here:

http://www.lostechies.com/blogs/jimmy_bogard/archive/2008/05/06/pablotv-eliminating-static-dependencies-screencast.aspx

]]> By: Matt Blodgett http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team/#comment-301 Matt Blodgett Tue, 27 May 2008 19:07:32 +0000 /blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team.aspx#comment-301 Great post. Yeah TDD is great, but how do I convince others in my company (especially managers) of its greatness? That is the question. You're interested in answering that question, which I appreciate very much. Great post. Yeah TDD is great, but how do I convince others in my company (especially managers) of its greatness? That is the question. You’re interested in answering that question, which I appreciate very much.

]]> By: Tucker http://lostechies.com/chadmyers/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team/#comment-300 Tucker Tue, 27 May 2008 19:00:24 +0000 /blogs/chad_myers/archive/2008/05/27/introducing-quality-first-notions-into-an-existing-team.aspx#comment-300 The application I support is massive and most of the logic is in the code-behind of the user controls / pages. I'd love to be able to start writing some meaningful tests for this but don't know where to start without re-writing the application to move logic to a business / service layer. The application I support is massive and most of the logic is in the code-behind of the user controls / pages. I’d love to be able to start writing some meaningful tests for this but don’t know where to start without re-writing the application to move logic to a business / service layer.

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