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	<title>Comments on: Ranting about the quality of developers</title>
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	<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/</link>
	<description>Blog about architectural patterns, best practices, coding principles and techniques</description>
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		<title>By: Chester</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-308</link>
		<dc:creator>Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-308</guid>
		<description>Nowadays coding in notepad says little about the ability a developer has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nowadays coding in notepad says little about the ability a developer has.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriel N. Schenker</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-307</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriel N. Schenker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2011 22:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-307</guid>
		<description>@middeledd: Don&#039;t worry, at no point I felt personally attacked by your replies. My post was inviting for answers like yours :)
Please read my former supervisor&#039;s post http://www.rayhouston.com/blog/?p=20 where he adds some more insight to our hiring process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@middeledd: Don&#8217;t worry, at no point I felt personally attacked by your replies. My post was inviting for answers like yours <img src='http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Please read my former supervisor&#8217;s post <a href="http://www.rayhouston.com/blog/?p=20" rel="nofollow">http://www.rayhouston.com/blog/?p=20</a> where he adds some more insight to our hiring process.</p>
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		<title>By: middledd</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-306</link>
		<dc:creator>middledd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2011 21:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-306</guid>
		<description>I just want to say, my comments were most likely not directed at YOU or YOUR COMPANY, per se.  I read your blog, and other blogs on lostechies, and I can honestly say that I feel your organization probably does not fit the description of most of the negative comments I had.  So, i&#039;m glad you did not take it personally.  

The problem is that there are way too many of these &quot;rants&quot; from companies that DO fit the description of many of my negative comments.  The problem is that your organization is a rare breed as are those of the persons at lostechies most likely.  

I will even go out on the fence and say I would love to work for any of the companies of the individuals who are writing for lostechies.  That&#039;s most likely why i read your blogs, I value your opinions.  However, companies like you describe make up about 1% of the companies that are hiring (obviously an exaggerated guess).  And, the other 99% of the companies somehow feel validated by having the same opinion as you but arent nearly as progressive in their dev training and / or pay as you.  

It makes me feel like you are doing more harm than good by validating their opinions.  What I really would like to see is more smart people such as yourself talk about the other side of the equation, the employer, as opposed to bashing the developer side.  Because, the fact is, most of those persons who come into your interview clueless, at some point worked for one of those other 99% of companies that I am speaking of negatively.  Just as much as it is up to the employee to achieve his / her potential, the honus also needs to be placed on the employer to help devs live up to their potentials.  

I&#039;m lucky enough, to work for one of the 1% companies, and after working from the 99% group for so long, I feel that employers in this country feel like it&#039;s ok for them to not hold up their end of the bargain - and then they feel like they have a right to rant about the employers.  It&#039;s insulting.  

And, regarding your English, in reading your article, I would never have guessed you were a non-native English speaker.  And, I am not one of the types that nit-picks persons for every little detail.  I was simply thinking about you as &quot;the employer&quot; and I just wanted to make a point that there are two sides to every equation.  To expect excellence you should be excellent.  In that statement, I&#039;m not talking about you the developer (whom I would most likely agree with on many issues and whom I look up to), i&#039;m talking about you the employer.  

I thank you for not overreacting, b/c i was highly frustrated and i said things in a very blount way.  But I just wanted to show you that just as employers are frustrated by the poor interviewees you&#039;ve experienced, many of us hard working devs are also frustrated at the employers we&#039;ve worked for and interviewed with. 

I guess, i just wish there were more companies out there like yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to say, my comments were most likely not directed at YOU or YOUR COMPANY, per se.  I read your blog, and other blogs on lostechies, and I can honestly say that I feel your organization probably does not fit the description of most of the negative comments I had.  So, i&#8217;m glad you did not take it personally.  </p>
<p>The problem is that there are way too many of these &#8220;rants&#8221; from companies that DO fit the description of many of my negative comments.  The problem is that your organization is a rare breed as are those of the persons at lostechies most likely.  </p>
<p>I will even go out on the fence and say I would love to work for any of the companies of the individuals who are writing for lostechies.  That&#8217;s most likely why i read your blogs, I value your opinions.  However, companies like you describe make up about 1% of the companies that are hiring (obviously an exaggerated guess).  And, the other 99% of the companies somehow feel validated by having the same opinion as you but arent nearly as progressive in their dev training and / or pay as you.  </p>
<p>It makes me feel like you are doing more harm than good by validating their opinions.  What I really would like to see is more smart people such as yourself talk about the other side of the equation, the employer, as opposed to bashing the developer side.  Because, the fact is, most of those persons who come into your interview clueless, at some point worked for one of those other 99% of companies that I am speaking of negatively.  Just as much as it is up to the employee to achieve his / her potential, the honus also needs to be placed on the employer to help devs live up to their potentials.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m lucky enough, to work for one of the 1% companies, and after working from the 99% group for so long, I feel that employers in this country feel like it&#8217;s ok for them to not hold up their end of the bargain &#8211; and then they feel like they have a right to rant about the employers.  It&#8217;s insulting.  </p>
<p>And, regarding your English, in reading your article, I would never have guessed you were a non-native English speaker.  And, I am not one of the types that nit-picks persons for every little detail.  I was simply thinking about you as &#8220;the employer&#8221; and I just wanted to make a point that there are two sides to every equation.  To expect excellence you should be excellent.  In that statement, I&#8217;m not talking about you the developer (whom I would most likely agree with on many issues and whom I look up to), i&#8217;m talking about you the employer.  </p>
<p>I thank you for not overreacting, b/c i was highly frustrated and i said things in a very blount way.  But I just wanted to show you that just as employers are frustrated by the poor interviewees you&#8217;ve experienced, many of us hard working devs are also frustrated at the employers we&#8217;ve worked for and interviewed with. </p>
<p>I guess, i just wish there were more companies out there like yours.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriel N. Schenker</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-305</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriel N. Schenker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 21:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-305</guid>
		<description>@middledd: First of all, thanks for you feedback. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Second, I really want to apologize for my bad English but I am not a native English speaker.
Third, we actually DO hire developers with a limited skill set AND train them but only if we feel the person is eager to learn.
Fourth, we pay above average salaries for people we really want to hire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@middledd: First of all, thanks for you feedback. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Second, I really want to apologize for my bad English but I am not a native English speaker.<br />
Third, we actually DO hire developers with a limited skill set AND train them but only if we feel the person is eager to learn.<br />
Fourth, we pay above average salaries for people we really want to hire.</p>
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		<title>By: middledd</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>middledd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 20:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-304</guid>
		<description>Ok, i&#039;ve calmed down now.  My apologies to the author as a simple grammatical error is no excuse for me talking down to you.  Also, as I said before, I really don&#039;t feel like you are an arrogant person - I don&#039;t know you at all personally.  However, I stand by my other comments regarding recruiters, hiring managers, and the whole clusterf*** revolving around hiring developers.  Just remember when it comes to hiring developers, for the most part, if you pay crap you will get a &quot;low level&quot; developer no matter what the resume says.  If you want an experienced rockstar you will have to pay rockstar prices, or at least something respectable for that skill level.  If you list a position at entry-level wages but require senior level / expert skills then you are asking for the types of interviews / responses / hires that inspire these &quot;rants&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, i&#8217;ve calmed down now.  My apologies to the author as a simple grammatical error is no excuse for me talking down to you.  Also, as I said before, I really don&#8217;t feel like you are an arrogant person &#8211; I don&#8217;t know you at all personally.  However, I stand by my other comments regarding recruiters, hiring managers, and the whole clusterf*** revolving around hiring developers.  Just remember when it comes to hiring developers, for the most part, if you pay crap you will get a &#8220;low level&#8221; developer no matter what the resume says.  If you want an experienced rockstar you will have to pay rockstar prices, or at least something respectable for that skill level.  If you list a position at entry-level wages but require senior level / expert skills then you are asking for the types of interviews / responses / hires that inspire these &#8220;rants&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: middledd</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-303</link>
		<dc:creator>middledd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 19:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-303</guid>
		<description>While i&#039;m at it:  To the author of this article I am going to change my tone and jump on you for a sec.  Instead of talking about the quality of others, if you are going to have a blog with your name on it so that it represents you, and especially if you are going to criticize the quality of others, you definitely should proofread your work before posting it for the world to see.  

&quot;Am I expecting too much? I don’t think so. Developers have I high responsibility. They produce software to automate business or mission critical processes. One should expect this software to be of high quality. To write high quality software we need good developers!&quot;

-We also need people who can dispel the mysteries of the profession without making simple grammatical errors.

Am I expecting too much to expect to read articles with no spelling / grammatical errors of the most basic type?   I would point out the error in the quote above, written by you, but then again you and your &quot;high quality&quot; skill-set probably already know or don&#039;t care about such a menial task as spelling and grammar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While i&#8217;m at it:  To the author of this article I am going to change my tone and jump on you for a sec.  Instead of talking about the quality of others, if you are going to have a blog with your name on it so that it represents you, and especially if you are going to criticize the quality of others, you definitely should proofread your work before posting it for the world to see.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Am I expecting too much? I don’t think so. Developers have I high responsibility. They produce software to automate business or mission critical processes. One should expect this software to be of high quality. To write high quality software we need good developers!&#8221;</p>
<p>-We also need people who can dispel the mysteries of the profession without making simple grammatical errors.</p>
<p>Am I expecting too much to expect to read articles with no spelling / grammatical errors of the most basic type?   I would point out the error in the quote above, written by you, but then again you and your &#8220;high quality&#8221; skill-set probably already know or don&#8217;t care about such a menial task as spelling and grammar.</p>
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		<title>By: middledd</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-302</link>
		<dc:creator>middledd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 19:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-302</guid>
		<description>Ah, i&#039;ve got so much to say.  But, at the moment, i&#039;m trying to improve from &quot;low level&quot; to &quot;high level&quot; so i should just close this window and get back to figuring out and memorizing exactly &quot;what bindings&quot; i&#039;m using as one of the last rocket scientist / rockstar / cool kids suggested before my takeover of this comment section.  I really hate arrogance.  I really hate being low balled.  I really hate people who went through the same mess as the rest of us &quot;low level&quot; guys goes through but act like they were born knowing everything that is and ever will be.  I really hate life.... Ok, I went to far with that one.  But if I held myself to the standards suggested by these companies trying to survive with thes low quality developers, then I would really hate myself and life.  Right now, I just hate said people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, i&#8217;ve got so much to say.  But, at the moment, i&#8217;m trying to improve from &#8220;low level&#8221; to &#8220;high level&#8221; so i should just close this window and get back to figuring out and memorizing exactly &#8220;what bindings&#8221; i&#8217;m using as one of the last rocket scientist / rockstar / cool kids suggested before my takeover of this comment section.  I really hate arrogance.  I really hate being low balled.  I really hate people who went through the same mess as the rest of us &#8220;low level&#8221; guys goes through but act like they were born knowing everything that is and ever will be.  I really hate life&#8230;. Ok, I went to far with that one.  But if I held myself to the standards suggested by these companies trying to survive with thes low quality developers, then I would really hate myself and life.  Right now, I just hate said people.</p>
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		<title>By: middledd</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-301</link>
		<dc:creator>middledd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 19:35:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-301</guid>
		<description>Man, i&#039;m soo amped up now.  Gosh, I really do appreciate this blog, and all the lostechies blogs.  But, please, and this is not just lostechies, but please everyone: STOP &quot;Ranting about the quality of developers&quot; and crying about the lack of talent.  Who is this helping and what does this acheive? People who want to scam are still going to scam.  All it does is discourage persons like myself, and all of us really, who do WANT to learn and WANT to get into a place at a good company, and HAVE TRIED the honest way to get into said companies but have been rejected or are looked down upon in &quot;rants&quot; such as this blog post because they are &quot;low quality&quot;.  It&#039;s insulting to me and i&#039;m sure others who at one point were &quot;low quality&quot; and on top of that at one point or another you were low quality too (you being this author and others who seemingly stick their noses in the air at the less experienced).  Not everyone knows people who can get them into the back door at one of those companies where they could learn that experience, and not everyone was blessed to be able to go to MIT, Harvard, Stanford, U Cal Berkeley.  Please just stop, if you want to weed out the cruft, do that.  But remember, the people you are left with are going to want more than 65k a year, or if they do take the position (b/c of the economy or their dire financial situations) they will not be around very long or happy while they are their - after those first few bills get paid.

To this particular author, I doubt you are as arrogant as I portray.  But, just as a person in Africa gets said when they see an American throw away horrible tasting food, when I see blog posts as this it makes me think that there are very few if any hiring managers left who value someone without White Collar type credentials.  Like, if i haven&#039;t already worked for Google, NASA, Facebook and I didn&#039;t just graduate from an Ivy League school with a 4.0 that i can&#039;t be a very motivated person and like I can&#039;t still be great and thus I should only get paid 65k for a job that requires 8 years of hard earned experience.  COME ON!  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, i&#8217;m soo amped up now.  Gosh, I really do appreciate this blog, and all the lostechies blogs.  But, please, and this is not just lostechies, but please everyone: STOP &#8220;Ranting about the quality of developers&#8221; and crying about the lack of talent.  Who is this helping and what does this acheive? People who want to scam are still going to scam.  All it does is discourage persons like myself, and all of us really, who do WANT to learn and WANT to get into a place at a good company, and HAVE TRIED the honest way to get into said companies but have been rejected or are looked down upon in &#8220;rants&#8221; such as this blog post because they are &#8220;low quality&#8221;.  It&#8217;s insulting to me and i&#8217;m sure others who at one point were &#8220;low quality&#8221; and on top of that at one point or another you were low quality too (you being this author and others who seemingly stick their noses in the air at the less experienced).  Not everyone knows people who can get them into the back door at one of those companies where they could learn that experience, and not everyone was blessed to be able to go to MIT, Harvard, Stanford, U Cal Berkeley.  Please just stop, if you want to weed out the cruft, do that.  But remember, the people you are left with are going to want more than 65k a year, or if they do take the position (b/c of the economy or their dire financial situations) they will not be around very long or happy while they are their &#8211; after those first few bills get paid.</p>
<p>To this particular author, I doubt you are as arrogant as I portray.  But, just as a person in Africa gets said when they see an American throw away horrible tasting food, when I see blog posts as this it makes me think that there are very few if any hiring managers left who value someone without White Collar type credentials.  Like, if i haven&#8217;t already worked for Google, NASA, Facebook and I didn&#8217;t just graduate from an Ivy League school with a 4.0 that i can&#8217;t be a very motivated person and like I can&#8217;t still be great and thus I should only get paid 65k for a job that requires 8 years of hard earned experience.  COME ON!  </p>
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		<title>By: middledd</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-300</link>
		<dc:creator>middledd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 19:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-300</guid>
		<description>To offer some actual constructive criticism regarding reviewing resumes:  if you go through a recruiter, you will get crap.  When I was Entry - Level / Junior, I followed what you probably believe is the correct way to create a resume, I listed things I actually knew.  But recruiters don&#039;t care.  Many times, they changed my resume &quot;for me&quot;.  MANY, they&#039;d say well &quot;do you know what X tech is&quot; and i&#039;d say flat out that I&#039;ve never used that tech in a production environment but (in trying to learn on my own) I&#039;d created a sample app or two using X.  They&#039;d say well you should definitely put that on your resume b/c this company is looking for someone who has some knowledge of X.  Then, i&#039;d get to the interview, and they&#039;d asking not just something about X but something about X that I later found out that only someone with 10+ years of experience would be able to tell you that specific fact about X that was asked, without having to look it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To offer some actual constructive criticism regarding reviewing resumes:  if you go through a recruiter, you will get crap.  When I was Entry &#8211; Level / Junior, I followed what you probably believe is the correct way to create a resume, I listed things I actually knew.  But recruiters don&#8217;t care.  Many times, they changed my resume &#8220;for me&#8221;.  MANY, they&#8217;d say well &#8220;do you know what X tech is&#8221; and i&#8217;d say flat out that I&#8217;ve never used that tech in a production environment but (in trying to learn on my own) I&#8217;d created a sample app or two using X.  They&#8217;d say well you should definitely put that on your resume b/c this company is looking for someone who has some knowledge of X.  Then, i&#8217;d get to the interview, and they&#8217;d asking not just something about X but something about X that I later found out that only someone with 10+ years of experience would be able to tell you that specific fact about X that was asked, without having to look it up.</p>
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		<title>By: middledd</title>
		<link>http://lostechies.com/gabrielschenker/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers/#comment-299</link>
		<dc:creator>middledd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 19:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/blogs/gabrielschenker/archive/2011/01/18/ranting-about-the-quality-of-developers.aspx#comment-299</guid>
		<description>And the comments like those of &quot;Gavin Chin&quot; above sort of exemplify what i&#039;m trying to say.  You can&#039;t get to be experienced unless you can work for someone where you can get that experience.  But no one wants to hire someone who wants that experience b/c they are not experienced.  WTF?  No one will hire Gavin b/c he already has too much experience (read: his salary reqs will be too high but they want a high level of talent).  So they are going to try to find another &quot;experienced&quot; person who would be more susceptible to being low-balled and sticking around for a while at the low-ball rate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the comments like those of &#8220;Gavin Chin&#8221; above sort of exemplify what i&#8217;m trying to say.  You can&#8217;t get to be experienced unless you can work for someone where you can get that experience.  But no one wants to hire someone who wants that experience b/c they are not experienced.  WTF?  No one will hire Gavin b/c he already has too much experience (read: his salary reqs will be too high but they want a high level of talent).  So they are going to try to find another &#8220;experienced&#8221; person who would be more susceptible to being low-balled and sticking around for a while at the low-ball rate.</p>
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