Comments on: The value of certifications http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/ Strong opinions, weakly held Sun, 19 May 2013 03:22:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Claudio Lassala http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4179 Claudio Lassala Thu, 01 Dec 2011 06:49:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4179 Good post, Jimmy. I can't agree more. I've posted something along the same lines just a few months ago: http://lassala.net/2011/07/28/certification-recertification-oh-please/ Good post, Jimmy. I can’t agree more. I’ve posted something along the same lines just a few months ago: http://lassala.net/2011/07/28/certification-recertification-oh-please/

]]> By: dotnetchris http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4173 dotnetchris Wed, 30 Nov 2011 15:33:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4173 " At my age (really olde), nothing helps in this business." You couldn't be more wrong. What gets you a job as a software developer is a track record of success, and passion. Working on open source projects, or creating your own open source project(s), development blogs etc all show case your commitment to the community and allows you to showcase your expertise. This correlates to StackOverflow usage also. Come in and talk about SOLID design, why good software development principles matter. Talk about the new and evolving technology that has your interests, talk about how you used technologies to solve problems. Age is irrelevant, I want developers who are interested in growing always and have a good fundamental basis. Sadly I've never found these in the candidates I've interviewed that have been older than me. I've met software developers whose careers were most of my entire age, yet I wouldn't even consider hiring for a junior developer because of their track record of fundamental misunderstanding of software development. ” At my age (really olde), nothing helps in this business.” You couldn’t be more wrong.

What gets you a job as a software developer is a track record of success, and passion. Working on open source projects, or creating your own open source project(s), development blogs etc all show case your commitment to the community and allows you to showcase your expertise. This correlates to StackOverflow usage also.

Come in and talk about SOLID design, why good software development principles matter. Talk about the new and evolving technology that has your interests, talk about how you used technologies to solve problems.

Age is irrelevant, I want developers who are interested in growing always and have a good fundamental basis.

Sadly I’ve never found these in the candidates I’ve interviewed that have been older than me. I’ve met software developers whose careers were most of my entire age, yet I wouldn’t even consider hiring for a junior developer because of their track record of fundamental misunderstanding of software development.

]]> By: Anonymous http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4172 Anonymous Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:44:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4172 I agree 100% that real world experience is far more important than certifications. Heck, it's even far more important than a CompSci degree. That being said, I don't feel there is anything wrong with getting certifications. In fact, for entry level positions, especially, where people lack real world experience, getting certified can separate you from other entry level  candidates. The problem is, as someone else stated, that the whole certification process is tainted by braindumps, and other ways of cheating. I thought about getting an MCTS in Web Programming, but I stopped because I came to .NET for ASP.NET MVC, and have used it exclusively in the .NET world since the first beta. The exam is only 13% MVC, and I just didn't have the desire to learn WebForms just for the purpose of getting certified. If Microsoft ever separates the two and gives an MVC track to certification, I'll probably take it. Why not? It may not have much merit in the grand scheme of things, but it can't hurt, either. I agree 100% that real world experience is far more important than certifications. Heck, it’s even far more important than a CompSci degree.

That being said, I don’t feel there is anything wrong with getting certifications. In fact, for entry level positions, especially, where people lack real world experience, getting certified can separate you from other entry level  candidates. The problem is, as someone else stated, that the whole certification process is tainted by braindumps, and other ways of cheating.

I thought about getting an MCTS in Web Programming, but I stopped because I came to .NET for ASP.NET MVC, and have used it exclusively in the .NET world since the first beta. The exam is only 13% MVC, and I just didn’t have the desire to learn WebForms just for the purpose of getting certified. If Microsoft ever separates the two and gives an MVC track to certification, I’ll probably take it. Why not? It may not have much merit in the grand scheme of things, but it can’t hurt, either.

]]> By: Chris Bristol http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4171 Chris Bristol Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:21:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4171 I think you're right, the certification itself doesn't mean much.  OTOH, it is very difficult to assess a candiate's skills quickly and accurately in a few interviews. Its much like choosing your wife after the first three dates.  Who knows if things will work out in the long term at that point?  Certifications at least let you know that a person is interested in something, and that they are motivated enough to work towards a goal. But if nothing else, certifications are a good way to get past the initial HR/recruiter phase.  Since many of them do not understand what we do very well (all they usually know are the buzzwords), the certificates hold more weight with them.  And since many companies use them as gatekeepers, it makes sense to put some effort into impressing them. I think you’re right, the certification itself doesn’t mean much.  OTOH, it is very difficult to assess a candiate’s skills quickly and accurately in a few interviews. Its much like choosing your wife after the first three dates.  Who knows if things will work out in the long term at that point?  Certifications at least let you know that a person is interested in something, and that they are motivated enough to work towards a goal.

But if nothing else, certifications are a good way to get past the initial HR/recruiter phase.  Since many of them do not understand what we do very well (all they usually know are the buzzwords), the certificates hold more weight with them.  And since many companies use them as gatekeepers, it makes sense to put some effort into impressing them.

]]> By: Track http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4169 Track Wed, 30 Nov 2011 10:25:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4169 I would say it helps a bit to get myself focussed on what to refresh/learn next. I tend to not dive deep enough without an exam on the horizon. I feel comfortable with both, the certification AND actually having experience in that field. I would suggest to not use the certification on business cards though. I have yet to meet people who do NOT want to work with me because I have certifications. That would as absurd like saying you do NOT want a B.Sc. in computer science (btw, many I have assessed didn't know proper OOP stuff they sure have learned).  I would say it helps a bit to get myself focussed on what to refresh/learn next. I tend to not dive deep enough without an exam on the horizon. I feel comfortable with both, the certification AND actually having experience in that field. I would suggest to not use the certification on business cards though. I have yet to meet people who do NOT want to work with me because I have certifications. That would as absurd like saying you do NOT want a B.Sc. in computer science (btw, many I have assessed didn’t know proper OOP stuff they sure have learned). 

]]> By: Jethro http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4168 Jethro Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:16:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4168 I have to say I disagree to some extent about this post. I do agree however that real world experience is vital, but is not always the case. I have worked with more than one developer who has quite a few years’ experience but has been doing the same work over and over and over. When I mean same work over and over, I mean codes in the same manner as they did 3-4 years ago, never trying new tools or technologies. Now something that a certificate does give you, and your potential boss, is that you at least understand your “language” and that you are looking to grow as a developer. Yes a lot of what you learn from a certification is general knowhow stuff, but it doesn’t mean you can’t learn anything from it, which to me says having a Certificate is not totally useless! I have to say I disagree to some extent about this post. I
do agree however that real world experience is vital, but is not always the
case. I have worked with more than one developer who has quite a few years’
experience but has been doing the same work over and over and over. When I mean
same work over and over, I mean codes in the same manner as they did 3-4 years
ago, never trying new tools or technologies. Now something that a certificate does
give you, and your potential boss, is that you at least understand your “language”
and that you are looking to grow as a developer. Yes a lot of what you learn
from a certification is general knowhow stuff, but it doesn’t mean you can’t
learn anything from it, which to me says having a Certificate is not totally useless!

]]> By: The Morning Brew - Chris Alcock » The Morning Brew #992 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4167 The Morning Brew - Chris Alcock » The Morning Brew #992 Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:00:53 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4167 [...] Certification Have Any Value? & The value of certifications - Davy Brion & Jimmy Bogard discuss the subject of developer certification, the dangers in [...] [...] Certification Have Any Value? & The value of certifications – Davy Brion & Jimmy Bogard discuss the subject of developer certification, the dangers in [...]

]]> By: Wesley http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4166 Wesley Wed, 30 Nov 2011 08:42:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4166 Interviewed a person who had 96% on .NET App. Foundation cert. He didn't know how to get the AppSettings from a config file (in first 100 pages of book). All the questions I asked from the book/exam he couldn't answer.  My conclusion: Braindumps. "NEXT candidate please." It was like a few years ago on Tech-ed Europe. The 10 year old girl from Pakistan or something. She was the youngest MCP. She did a demo of her calculator App. DOH. Conclusion "She can remember things by heart very well from the Braindumps" Interviewed a person who had 96% on .NET App. Foundation cert. He didn’t know how to get the AppSettings from a config file (in first 100 pages of book).
All the questions I asked from the book/exam he couldn’t answer. 
My conclusion: Braindumps. “NEXT candidate please.”

It was like a few years ago on Tech-ed Europe. The 10 year old girl from Pakistan or something. She was the youngest MCP. She did a demo of her calculator App. DOH.
Conclusion “She can remember things by heart very well from the Braindumps”

]]> By: Chris Tavares http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4165 Chris Tavares Wed, 30 Nov 2011 03:49:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4165 I got my CSM almost as an afterthought. Jeff Sutherland was teaching the class locally, and the chance to pick the brains of one of the originators of Scrum for three days was too good to pass up. Getting the piece of paper (actually  a PDF) was really incidental to the experience. I got my CSM almost as an afterthought. Jeff Sutherland was teaching the class locally, and the chance to pick the brains of one of the originators of Scrum for three days was too good to pass up. Getting the piece of paper (actually  a PDF) was really incidental to the experience.

]]> By: Josh Bartley http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4164 Josh Bartley Wed, 30 Nov 2011 03:29:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2011/11/29/the-value-of-certifications/#comment-4164 I just recently came from a meeting where certifications did hold value and not in any context you have mentioned. Some colleges honor the Network+ and CCNA certifications as college credit hours applied to specific programs. So in a situation where a high school student has the chance to earn college credits like an AP course is highly WORTHWHILE. Second point is, as a programmer I see certifications as a test that you passed to prove yourself just like in most of education. How you apply the knowledge is always up for debate and can be the difference between an ok person and an awesome person. The other piece to look at is what is the certification in? I have a Network+ and have placed high in Cisco competitions, what does that say about me as a developer? I can work better  with the network team then any other developer out there, and the proof is the certification on my resume. I just recently came from a meeting where certifications did hold value and not in any context you have mentioned. Some colleges honor the Network+ and CCNA certifications as college credit hours applied to specific programs. So in a situation where a high school student has the chance to earn college credits like an AP course is highly WORTHWHILE.

Second point is, as a programmer I see certifications as a test that you passed to prove yourself just like in most of education. How you apply the knowledge is always up for debate and can be the difference between an ok person and an awesome person. The other piece to look at is what is the certification in? I have a Network+ and have placed high in Cisco competitions, what does that say about me as a developer? I can work better  with the network team then any other developer out there, and the proof is the certification on my resume.

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