Comments on: Don’t write your own ORM http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/ Strong opinions, weakly held Thu, 23 May 2013 23:40:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Andrei Rinea http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4792 Andrei Rinea Mon, 30 Jul 2012 09:40:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4792 With all my ORM hate I must admit that I really like Dapper :) With all my ORM hate I must admit that I really like Dapper :)

]]> By: robconery http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4789 robconery Mon, 30 Jul 2012 00:33:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4789 What *possible* flexibility do you find limiting? What *possible* flexibility do you find limiting?

]]> By: Anonymous http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4784 Anonymous Fri, 27 Jul 2012 13:37:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4784 It is a fundamental difference in viewpoint between entrepreneurs and the status quo. The entrepreneur (or anyone with an inclination toward the creative) looks around at what has been already created with the determination that either he/she could build it better or use it in ways not yet understood. The .Net community suffers too much from the status quo which is precisely one of its failures in the start-up community which assumes LAMP is the embodiment of creativity. Someone as Ayende or entrepreneurs as M. Zuckerberg follow the entrepreneur path. Why do what many other more-established database platforms have already done? What a waste of time it must have been to write RavenDB! My advice to every coder, new and experienced is: recreate the wheel. Try. Use tools in ways no one intended. If you think you might be able to do something better, there is only one way to find out and being afraid that "you're stealing from your employer" or "Just don't do it" is a certain path to failure. Nicholas de Lioncourt It is a fundamental difference in viewpoint between entrepreneurs and the status quo. The entrepreneur (or anyone with an inclination toward the creative) looks around at what has been already created with the determination that either he/she could build it better or use it in ways not yet understood.

The .Net community suffers too much from the status quo which is precisely one of its failures in the start-up community which assumes LAMP is the embodiment of creativity.

Someone as Ayende or entrepreneurs as M. Zuckerberg follow the entrepreneur path. Why do what many other more-established database platforms have already done? What a waste of time it must have been to write RavenDB!

My advice to every coder, new and experienced is: recreate the wheel. Try. Use tools in ways no one intended. If you think you might be able to do something better, there is only one way to find out and being afraid that “you’re stealing from your employer” or “Just don’t do it” is a certain path to failure.

Nicholas de Lioncourt

]]> By: Anonymous http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4783 Anonymous Fri, 27 Jul 2012 12:31:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4783 You bring up some excellent points! Enough dissenters that I'll write a "When to write your own ORM" post. You bring up some excellent points! Enough dissenters that I’ll write a “When to write your own ORM” post.

]]> By: Anonymous http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4779 Anonymous Fri, 27 Jul 2012 00:13:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4779 Whoa! Not true in the least. Coders: if you want to write an ORM please do so. "...If you’re writing ADO.Net code by hand, you’re stealing from your employer or client..." Subjective. You have assumed no other person has the ability to write more proficient and expressive ADO.Net code which is not a valid argument since others whom you consider "experts" were themselves at one time beginners. Had they followed this advice, they would have never tried. "...But unless you’re Ayende or Greg Young, you should not write your own ORM..." Quite fortunately others have not followed this type of advice. How did Ayende or Greg Young attain this mastery... by writing their own. Had Mark Zuckerberg been told "unless you are Chris DeWolfe of MySpace..." "...You’re wasting time writing and maintaining code for a problem that has already been solved..." Yes and Charles Duell in 1899 said "Everything that can be invented has been invented." He was wrong as well. Nicholas de Lioncourt Whoa! Not true in the least. Coders: if you want to write an ORM please do so.

“…If you’re writing ADO.Net code by hand, you’re stealing from your employer or client…”

Subjective. You have assumed no other person has the ability to write more proficient and expressive ADO.Net code which is not a valid argument since others whom you consider “experts” were themselves at one time beginners. Had they followed this advice, they would have never tried.

“…But unless you’re Ayende or Greg Young, you should not write your own ORM…”

Quite fortunately others have not followed this type of advice. How did Ayende or Greg Young attain this mastery… by writing their own. Had Mark Zuckerberg been told “unless you are Chris DeWolfe of MySpace…”

“…You’re wasting time writing and maintaining code for a problem that has already been solved…”

Yes and Charles Duell in 1899 said “Everything that can be invented has been invented.” He was wrong as well.

Nicholas de Lioncourt

]]> By: Anonymous http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4774 Anonymous Thu, 26 Jul 2012 19:19:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4774 I guess I'm missing something - this has nothing to do with simple web applications. I use these techniques with the exact systems you're referring to. Bulk operations, table hints, optimized queries, bulk copy/insert, MARS etc. I just prefer using ORMs with less code than what ADO.NET forces me to. Why waste my employer's money writing code for a problem that someone else has already solved? I guess I’m missing something – this has nothing to do with simple web applications. I use these techniques with the exact systems you’re referring to. Bulk operations, table hints, optimized queries, bulk copy/insert, MARS etc. I just prefer using ORMs with less code than what ADO.NET forces me to. Why waste my employer’s money writing code for a problem that someone else has already solved?

]]> By: Hshah http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4772 Hshah Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:14:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4772 Agree 100%. I'm guessing people who hold this opinion spend most of their days writing web apps. Ever visit the exciting world of giant financial systems and the back end processing that goes along with it? Agree 100%. I’m guessing people who hold this opinion spend most of their days writing web apps. Ever visit the exciting world of giant financial systems and the back end processing that goes along with it?

]]> By: Anonymous http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4769 Anonymous Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:37:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4769 A beginner? I'd probably just go with sample exercises of how to use ADO.NET. But in production code? No. ADO.NET is complicated enough, there are much simpler options that are easier to get right than ADO.NET. I don't think knowing ADO.NET leads to better understanding of ORMs, though. It's more of an illustration of how bad ADO.NET is to use directly, and instead to use something else that has already solved these problems more elegantly than a beginner could. Things I would teach - parameterized queries are important, but how an IDataReader works? Meh, it has nothing to do with solving a business problem. I'd rather spend my time teaching how SQL works and relational DBs work, than focus on the low-level guts of how ADO.NET exposes those features. A beginner? I’d probably just go with sample exercises of how to use ADO.NET. But in production code? No. ADO.NET is complicated enough, there are much simpler options that are easier to get right than ADO.NET. I don’t think knowing ADO.NET leads to better understanding of ORMs, though. It’s more of an illustration of how bad ADO.NET is to use directly, and instead to use something else that has already solved these problems more elegantly than a beginner could.

Things I would teach – parameterized queries are important, but how an IDataReader works? Meh, it has nothing to do with solving a business problem. I’d rather spend my time teaching how SQL works and relational DBs work, than focus on the low-level guts of how ADO.NET exposes those features.

]]> By: Rémi BOURGAREL http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4768 Rémi BOURGAREL Thu, 26 Jul 2012 13:25:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4768 You think that a beginner should directly use an ORM ? without creating his own ? Don't you think that this'll lead to bad practice and bad understanding of the framework ? You think that a beginner should directly use an ORM ? without creating his own ? Don’t you think that this’ll lead to bad practice and bad understanding of the framework ?

]]> By: Anonymous http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4767 Anonymous Thu, 26 Jul 2012 12:41:00 +0000 http://lostechies.com/jimmybogard/2012/07/24/dont-write-your-own-orm/#comment-4767 Batch operations - supported by ORMs Legacy systems/databases - supported by ORMs Ones which there is no support for that DB - what isn't supported by an existing ORM out there? Now I'm really curious! How would I define ORM? Anything that maps objects to relational DBs, and vice-versa. If you're in .NET and have to talk to a relational DB, you HAVE to either write ORM code yourself, or use an existing one. Thanks for the discussion!! Batch operations – supported by ORMs
Legacy systems/databases – supported by ORMs
Ones which there is no support for that DB – what isn’t supported by an existing ORM out there? Now I’m really curious!

How would I define ORM? Anything that maps objects to relational DBs, and vice-versa. If you’re in .NET and have to talk to a relational DB, you HAVE to either write ORM code yourself, or use an existing one.

Thanks for the discussion!!

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