Comments on: When passion becomes dogma is it elitism? http://lostechies.com/joeocampo/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism/ Tales from the field... Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:43:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Joe Ocampo http://lostechies.com/joeocampo/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism/#comment-284 Joe Ocampo Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:25:54 +0000 /blogs/joe_ocampo/archive/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism.aspx#comment-284 @Jeremy >There is some value to putting a stake in the ground and saying "this is what I think is right, even if it's hard to do." I couldn't agree with you more but at what point to we reflect to determine if the stake is in solid ground or lose sand? About Ron Jefferies I think I didn't quiet make it clear but I was contrasting that because of there dogmatic personalities Agile was successful...Hence I agree with everything you mentioned. @Jeremy

>There is some value to putting a stake in the ground and saying “this is what I think is right, even if it’s hard to do.”

I couldn’t agree with you more but at what point to we reflect to determine if the stake is in solid ground or lose sand?

About Ron Jefferies I think I didn’t quiet make it clear but I was contrasting that because of there dogmatic personalities Agile was successful…Hence I agree with everything you mentioned.

]]> By: jlockwood http://lostechies.com/joeocampo/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism/#comment-283 jlockwood Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:28:17 +0000 /blogs/joe_ocampo/archive/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism.aspx#comment-283 @Jeremy - Agreed...although I'm not sure I'd really classify that as dogma. If it's dogma you're not able to challenge it. Making a stand for some principle or other is not being dogmatic. Holding to a principle with blind faith and ignoring all challenges to or criticism of the principle is however. Also, I think that many have masked laziness with the term "pragmatism". How can they be sure if their approach to testing is more "pragmatic" than another approach that they've never even truly attempted. Their more "pragmatic" approach is simply not changing (or at least severely limiting change to) behavior. @Jeremy – Agreed…although I’m not sure I’d really classify that as dogma. If it’s dogma you’re not able to challenge it. Making a stand for some principle or other is not being dogmatic. Holding to a principle with blind faith and ignoring all challenges to or criticism of the principle is however.
Also, I think that many have masked laziness with the term “pragmatism”. How can they be sure if their approach to testing is more “pragmatic” than another approach that they’ve never even truly attempted. Their more “pragmatic” approach is simply not changing (or at least severely limiting change to) behavior.

]]> By: Jean-Baptiste Potonnier http://lostechies.com/joeocampo/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism/#comment-282 Jean-Baptiste Potonnier Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:52:56 +0000 /blogs/joe_ocampo/archive/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism.aspx#comment-282 typo: I think it's Kent Beck, not Ken typo: I think it’s Kent Beck, not Ken

]]> By: Jeremy D. Miller http://lostechies.com/joeocampo/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism/#comment-281 Jeremy D. Miller Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:13:15 +0000 /blogs/joe_ocampo/archive/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism.aspx#comment-281 Nice post Joe, but... "...Ron Jefferies wouldn’t have been dogmatic about Agile?" Are you kidding me? I love to tell Bellware that he's the "Ron Jefferies" of the ALT.NET movement. A little bit of dogmaticism isn't the worst thing in the world as long as we're able to challenge the dogma. The Agile world has experienced a huge problem with "pragmaticism" being a slippery slope to harmful compromise. We don't really have to pair do we? I don't really need to write a test first for all of this. Etc. There is some value to putting a stake in the ground and saying "this is what I think is right, even if it's hard to do." Nice post Joe, but…

“…Ron Jefferies wouldn’t have been dogmatic about Agile?”

Are you kidding me? I love to tell Bellware that he’s the “Ron Jefferies” of the ALT.NET movement.

A little bit of dogmaticism isn’t the worst thing in the world as long as we’re able to challenge the dogma. The Agile world has experienced a huge problem with “pragmaticism” being a slippery slope to harmful compromise. We don’t really have to pair do we? I don’t really need to write a test first for all of this. Etc. There is some value to putting a stake in the ground and saying “this is what I think is right, even if it’s hard to do.”

]]> By: jlockwood http://lostechies.com/joeocampo/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism/#comment-280 jlockwood Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:58:19 +0000 /blogs/joe_ocampo/archive/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism.aspx#comment-280 Excellent entry. I think too often developers(hell, humans in general) gravitate toward dogmatic paradigms. The early agile evangelists struggled long with the often dogmatic beliefs of their predecessors. Defined processes are simply models for software engineering. As such, these models must accepted as incomplete (given the innumerable factors involved in any given software project) and should constantly be challenged and refined. As a process is proved incomplete or ineffectual it should be changed with the goal of greater completeness. As in contemporary sciences, software engineering processes must be always subject to Hegel's dialectic. We form a thesis as to what will help us develop better software, experience will soon offer antitheses, then we move again toward synthesis...and a new way of doing things. With the absence of the dialectic, we cease to be agile. To me it is impossible to be truly dogmatic while claiming agility. With eXtreme Programming, for instance, wouldn't dogmatic beliefs negate XP's central value to "Embrace Change"? I think that once we can no longer consider change we are marking ourselves as irrelevant. Excellent entry. I think too often developers(hell, humans in general) gravitate toward dogmatic paradigms. The early agile evangelists struggled long with the often dogmatic beliefs of their predecessors. Defined processes are simply models for software engineering. As such, these models must accepted as incomplete (given the innumerable factors involved in any given software project) and should constantly be challenged and refined. As a process is proved incomplete or ineffectual it should be changed with the goal of greater completeness.
As in contemporary sciences, software engineering processes must be always subject to Hegel’s dialectic. We form a thesis as to what will help us develop better software, experience will soon offer antitheses, then we move again toward synthesis…and a new way of doing things. With the absence of the dialectic, we cease to be agile.
To me it is impossible to be truly dogmatic while claiming agility. With eXtreme Programming, for instance, wouldn’t dogmatic beliefs negate XP’s central value to “Embrace Change”? I think that once we can no longer consider change we are marking ourselves as irrelevant.

]]> By: Joe Ocampo http://lostechies.com/joeocampo/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism/#comment-279 Joe Ocampo Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:51:09 +0000 /blogs/joe_ocampo/archive/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism.aspx#comment-279 @Richard I agree we have reached a threshold of Agile as we have known it and we are redefining it based on the adaptive nature of certain business models. It is important to note that we should constantly reflect upon the guiding principles and values of the Agile Manifesto before we become to coarse grained in our approach to Agile and turn it into yet another version of waterfall. The balance of dogma and passion, such a fine art it is. @Richard

I agree we have reached a threshold of Agile as we have known it and we are redefining it based on the adaptive nature of certain business models.

It is important to note that we should constantly reflect upon the guiding principles and values of the Agile Manifesto before we become to coarse grained in our approach to Agile and turn it into yet another version of waterfall.

The balance of dogma and passion, such a fine art it is.

]]> By: Richard Banks http://lostechies.com/joeocampo/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism/#comment-278 Richard Banks Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:05:54 +0000 /blogs/joe_ocampo/archive/2007/11/14/when-passion-becomes-dogma-is-it-elitism.aspx#comment-278 That's a great post Joe! I think you'll find that now that the "early adopters" have moved through agile and the crowd starts arriving that some of the fundamentalist (maybe that's the best word) attitudes mellow and we become more pragmatic in our approach. And if Agile is all about inspecting and adapting (and it is) then those people with a strongly elitist/fundamentalist approach will be sidelined and marginalised because they'll fail to adjust their thinking as agile spreads beyond the niche into the mainstream. That’s a great post Joe! I think you’ll find that now that the “early adopters” have moved through agile and the crowd starts arriving that some of the fundamentalist (maybe that’s the best word) attitudes mellow and we become more pragmatic in our approach.

And if Agile is all about inspecting and adapting (and it is) then those people with a strongly elitist/fundamentalist approach will be sidelined and marginalised because they’ll fail to adjust their thinking as agile spreads beyond the niche into the mainstream.

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