Oxite Review

Several folks, including Microsoft employees and members of the Oxite team, have politely requested I do a post or few on the problems I see with Oxite and why I previously recommended that it is not a good example/sample from which to base future products.

At first, I was reluctant to do this since I was afraid people might see it as some sort of attack or other negative. But since I have been encouraged by several folks as mentioned, I feel that this will be constructive and received as a “good thing”.

Setup

First, I want to make sure that everyone knows there’s no attack here, nothing personal, this is purely about code and in no way a reflection on the individual.  The way we roll at Dovetail is that we are dispassionate about our code and follow practices such as collective code ownership, refactoring mercilessly, pair programming, and no premature optimization, which help disassociate our passion, creativity, and soul from the code so that we can objectively look at parts and say “that is bad” or “this is good” and mean it.  So I’m coming from a viewpoint that the code is code and should be mercilessly, objectively torn apart and made to stand on its own merits, independent of who wrote it and under what conditions.  I say that code can be objectively determined to be “good” or “bad” and patterns and anti-patterns identified with certainty and no subjectivity.

Second, please consider Nate Kohari’s recent great post on debate vs. argument; ego, pride, personal attachment, etc. as this also helps to frame where I’m coming from.  During this review, I’m not going to mention people, their motivations, their goals and desires, etc.  I’m only going to talk about the code and the requirements of the features the code is trying to accomplish.

With these things in mind, let us now objectively view Oxite as a body of work, independent of any individuals involved in its creation, that must stand alone and be evaluated solely on its own merits.

As a Sample Application…

Oxite is a “real world sample” and not necessarily official guidance (a la the Patterns & Practices type stuff).  As a sample, the packaging of Oxite is good as it includes many facets of a project from the domain, to the database, to the front end, etc.  Perhaps it could’ve included some more documentation (maybe I missed it? I didn’t look very hard, admittedly).  Since this wasn’t positioned as a guidance project, people should avoid referring other people to it as any sort of best practice or official anything from Microsoft.  As ASP.NET MVC matures after release, I expect we’ll start seeing more official guidance from P&P and other groups within Microsoft.

Recommendation: [For MS, primarily, as this problem is mostly unique due to MS’ position with respect to .NET] Perhaps MS could establish more official terms to set expectations for customers. “Sample” is not “Guidance” is not “Recommendation” is not “Stance”, etc.

As an OSS project…

Oxite is an open-source project. It is released under the Microsoft Public (Ms-PL) license which is quite permissive and in line with generally accepted good practices for open source. This is very good.  Oxite is hosted on the CodePlex project site and (correct me if I’m wrong) is not accepting patches from the public due to, I believe, concerns of patent/IP violations and such.  This is not very good. Part of being open is allowing people to modify it without having to fork the code.  At the very least, we can fork it which is certainly heads above what we normally get from large corporations which is either no visibility, or only push releases.  Overall, I’m very pleased MS has taken this approach with Oxite and I’d like to greatly encourage them to pursue this method of release in the future.  My only critique is that maybe they find a way to accept patches from the public (I’m ok if they need to fill out some affidavit or other legal form). 

As a .NET OSS project, I was particularly disappointed in the fact that the high-level Visual Studio Team *.* SKU’s were used in its creation. I don’t have the numbers, but I’m willing to bet that the vast majority of .NET developers do not have the full Visual Studio suite (Database, Test, etc) and so they won’t even be able to open the SLN file without having to hack CSPROJ files and such (like I had to).  There is a SLN file for Visual Web Developer Express that will help get people going, but this seems like an afterthought, rather than a good strategy.

Also missing is any sort of automated build script. What if I want to set up Oxite in my own CI server to pull down the trunk nightly and do builds in my environment?  This is pretty standard among .NET OSS projects, so I was disappointed that this was missing.

Recommendation: [For MS and other companies seeking to release .NET OSS] Either let these things go out to be full OSS projects and release the copyright and liability to the public somehow to achieve full indemnity from possible patent or copyright infringement.  And/or, find a legal framework for being able to accept patches from individuals in the community.

Recommendation: [For anyone managing an OSS project] Please take a little more care to ensure that you have respected generally accepted minimum expectations of an OSS project such as an automated build and decent test coverage.

Tests!?!

Technically, this should just go under the previous section, but it’s significant enough that it should be called out on its own. Unless I’m missing something, there are around 51 tests for the entire project and those tests cover only the MetaWeblog API handling and the XmlRpc handling.  Without having run a coverage tool, I’m guessing that coverage is below 10%. I’m very serious when I say that this would be considered unacceptable on most projects I’m involved with. I would be put on probation or possibly removed from a project at a corporate customer or removed as a committer on an OSS project for committing code with <10% coverage.  Quite frankly, it is dangerous to have a large application with <10% test coverage.  It is also a liability in that future changes become ever increasingly difficult with the friction and fear of change due to the unknown of how changes may break functionality and cause regression bugs.

The tests that are there (for example, I count 49 in the MetaWeblogServiceTests) are a little heavy. In my opinion, this indicates that MetWeblogService has too many responsibilities and is putting too much burden on the tests to account for the excessive dependencies of MetaWeblogService.  It’s also curious that no mocking framework was used, but instead (excessive, IMHO) use of fake, concrete test implementations were used.  Several(though not most) of the tests are asserting too many things which leads to brittle tests and can cause friction during refactoring. 

Testing is not just about ensuring the current code works properly (that is important), but also explaining how the code works so that, in the future, when changes are made, maintenance programmers understand why the change they made broke other things.  This enhances change confidence and encourages fearless refactoring which is key to maintaining a rapid, sustainable pace throughout the life of the development.

But I digress, this subject is perhaps too large and requires a post in an of itself. Suffices to say that  there are too few tests and the tests that are there, while meaningful, will contribute to increased friction over the life of the product and should probably be refactored as the project goes on.

Recommendation: [For anyone managing an OSS project] Tests serve many purposes including encouraging contributors because they can see how things are supposed to work, and can be more confident in their changes, knowing that tests will most likely catch them if they make a big mistake.  At this point, going BACK and adding tests would likely be a waste of time. Going forward, all new features should be developed with tests (preferably test-driven as this helps keep your design on track, it’s a curious side effect of writing client code FIRST, then the code to make it work).  Any bugs that pop up between now and then should first have a test that reproduces the problem, then the fix should be implemented, and the tests should then pass (without modification). If they don’t pass, the fix isn’t quite right.  If, during the fixing of bugs, you discover other problems or realize there’s more refactoring to do, do that code test-driven along with the bugfix. Try to keep changes minimal and focused, though, and with a high degree of coverage (preferably >90%, but that’s not a hard rule).

Test should be small, easy to write, and not require a lot of setup. If they’re not meeting ALL of these three criteria, you have a design problem and need to reinvestigate. It happens all the time that I find myself violating one or more of these rules, and the tests help to point me to where in my design I screwed up. This is a natural thing and shouldn’t be seen as negative. You caught the problem early and tests helped spot it and point you in the right direction. Just keep these criteria in mind as you proceed.

Domain

The heart of any good project is its domain. The domain is the understanding and model of the core problem this application is trying to solve.  The domain is king. It should be fat, juicy, and contain the core logic that constitutes how this application behaves. Everything else in the application serves the domain by either bringing information to it, or relaying information out of it to the customer (users, other applications, data storage, etc).  Great care and investment should be placed on the domain of the application as it is your greatest and most important asset.  Principles, patterns, and practices have evolved around this very integral part of application design. Entire books have been written. These include Domain Driven Design (Evans) and Applying Domain-Driven Design and Patterns: Using .NET (Nilsson), among many others.

An important part of key domain object model design is to do it independent of persistence concerns (known as “Persistence Ignorance”). Object Oriented Design is a fundamentally different problem than Relational Data Model Design and each should be done independent of the other to avoid the patterns of one being misapplied in the other.  The intermediary between the contrary physics of these two worlds is the Object/Relational Mapper (ORM) such as NHibernate, LLBLGen Pro, and, to a lesser extent, ADO.NET Entity Framework and the now defunct Linq2SQL.

In Oxite, the domain appears to have been driven from the relational model (i.e. database) which has caused some interesting problems that had to be worked around and have hampered the domain (we’ll get to this later).  The data provider used was Linq2SQL.  Object/database design were achieved using the Linq2SQL designer-generated classes. These classes are partial classes which allow the application to create the other half of the partial class in another file. In these partial classes are added the property-changed, relationship, and other data-concerned handling/functionality. Also, each partial adds an interface (i.e. IPost for the oxite_Post object) presumably to hide away some of the details of Linq2SQL.

Recommendation: Domain objects should be POCO objects with no attachments to or knowledge of the database whatsoever. You can have class hierarchies (but proceed cautiously and light here) and entities can have interfaces, but this should be a rare occurrence and should not required of all of them.  The objects should be able to be used and their functionality fully useful without requiring any backend infrastructure, services, database, etc. When it comes to persistence, the persistence framework should “just work” and support the objects naturally without them having to implement any special interfaces or have to do anything special (i.e. including support for transparent lazy loaded collections, and none of this EntitySet business).  If your ORM can’t do that, consider one of the already available, major, post 1.x version offerings that have been proving themselves for years on the market in battle.

Linq2SQL Problems

You may have noticed earlier when I said “to a lesser extent” when talking about Linq2SQL as an ORM. This is because Linq2SQL is missing a lot of key functionality to be considered as a full-fledged ORM.  Among these are automatic change-tracking and cascade support, transparent lazy loading, and database data-type minutiae handling.  These things are just a given in a more mature and full-featured ORM like NHibernate, for example.

I also said that the use of Linq2SQL has caused some interesting problems. Aside from having to manually do change tracking, deal with underlying SQL data-types, and having to deal with relationships manually, the Linq2SQL-based objects have the pernicious problem of not being able to be used (easily) without being connected to the database.  This is the opposite of “Persistence Ignorance.”  To counter this problem, Oxite has entity interfaces (i.e. IPost).  Generally speaking, interfaces for entities is a smell. In this case, the smell is definitely pointing to a problem and using interfaces is merely a band-aid for that problem.

Recommendation: Don’t use Linq2SQL as it’s simply too much friction and lacks critical features.  Use a full-featured ORM like NHibernate or several of the commercial ones available.

Interface Entities

I mentioned above some of the problems with interface-based entities like IPost, ITag, etc. I wanted to call out a specific example of where something like this can go very wrong.  In the partial class declaration of class oxite_Tag, the Parent property has a significant problem for reuse and future maintenance. For reference, see PartialClasses.cs, line 646.

The problem with this property is that it means oxite_Tag is only valid with other oxite_Tag implementations of ITag. This is what’s known as a violation of the Liskov Substituion Principle and/or the Open Closed Principle. Put simply, anyone doing anything with ITag would be surprised if they started getting InvalidCastExceptions because of some problem lurking deep in your design.  If the intention is that oxite_Tag can only work with other oxite_Tag’s, then it shouldn’t use an ITag interface when it doesn’t really mean it.

Is this nitpicking? Kinda. The oxite_Tag problem may never get hit, but it is a potential landmine in your code, waiting to explode on an unsuspecting maintenance programmer. If your design has special magic and gotchas, you have a problem.

Recommendation: Interfaces should be intention revealing and their implementation contain no surprises.  Interfaces also should only be used where true abstraction is needed. Entities/domain modeling is generally one of these places where abstraction is not necessary (and therefore interfaces shouldn’t be used).

Database Assumptions

The entities in Oxite have several assumptions specifically about SQL Server (heavy use of SqlDateTime.Min/MaxValue).  This is yet another problem that stems from the of usage of Linq2SQL.  To address this, Oxite has abstracted entities (behind interfaces such as IPost, ITag, etc) and abstracted the repositories behind interfaces (good, actually!) and these repositories are accessed through an “IOxiteDataProvider” implementation, such as OxiteLinqToSqlDataProvider (bad, more on this later).  This is not the appropriate place to abstract database concerns.  I’ll cover proper layering and proper concern separation later. For now, the relevant point is that concerns about the specific usage of the underlying database have seeped up too high in the layering of the application, necessarily requiring more and more complex architecture and abstractions to work around this. This means implementing an “IOxiteDataProvider” is more difficult for would-be implementers than it should be and much duplication of code will likely result.  It also prohibits the use of a fat/rich domain model which leads me to the next section (Anemic Domain).

Recommendation: Keep database-specifics as close to the database as possible and, to the maximum extent possible, completely out of your application code. This is best handled by a persistence framework such as an ORM like NHibernate.  Doing this will make it much easier to implement different data access strategies later in the product’s life and to support a wider range of database platforms with little to no change to most of the application code. You’ll still have to test on each database you plan on supporting, but the code should not have to change (much) when adding support for a new database.

Anemic Domain

Another problem with the domain of Oxite is that all the entity objects are anemic with a few minor exceptions.  An anemic domain model is one that is largely if not entirely comprised of getters/setters and are just data containers (DTOs for the database, if you will).  This necessarily forces all the interesting logic of the domain to be the responsibility of other, perhaps less appropriate, parties which can lead to “service explosion” or “manager anti-pattern”, etc.

Like I said earlier, domains should necessarily be fat and contain all the relevant logic. They should contain concepts such as “required” and “unique”, etc and these concepts should flow out into the rest of the application including into the relational database model.  The domain should prevent invalid states/situations and should enforce rules throughout the system.  This is not to be confused necessarily with the antiquated concept of a Business Logic Layer, however.

Recommendation: The domain model should be “fat” and rich.  It should be modeled according to the current understanding of how the domain SHOULD work (i.e. X is required, there can only be 1 Y per every X, When an A is added to a B, that B’s “A” property should be set to the newly-related A instance, etc, etc, etc).

Conclusion of Part 1

It looks like this will be a multi-parter, because it’s already long and I haven’t even gotten to the majority of issues.  By the time this review is done, I’d like to cover the following things by the time I’m done (wish me luck):

  • Problems with the Provider anti-pattern
  • Incorrect layering and slicing of abstractions
  • Lack of Dependency Injection (in some cases) and IoC causes cascading design problems
  • High Coupling, Low Cohesion
  • Single Responsibility Principle, Separation of Concerns, and Interface Segregation Principle violations causing problems
  • What is a “Controller” for?
  • What is a “View” for?
  • Mystery Meat, Magic Strings, and Bags of Holding +1
  • Presentation Models
  • Logic in Views Is Bad
  • ASP.NET MVC guts leaking up into all parts of the app
  • (other stuff that will probably come up in the comments that I didn’t think of)

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About Chad Myers

Chad Myers is the Director of Development for Dovetail Software, in Austin, TX, where he leads a premiere software team building complex enterprise software products. Chad is a .NET software developer specializing in enterprise software designs and architectures. He has over 12 years of software development experience and a proven track record of Agile, test-driven project leadership using both Microsoft and open source tools. He is a community leader who speaks at the Austin .NET User's Group, the ADNUG Code Camp, and participates in various development communities and open source projects.
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  • http://www.twitter.com/MotoWilliams MotoWilliams

    @Chad – In the Domain.Recommendation section you mentioned “You can have class hierarchies (but proceed cautiously and light here)…”. I was wondering if you could elaborate on some of the dangers of that either here in the comments or maybe a separate post?

  • http://paulbatum.com Paul Batum

    Hi Chad. I think this is an interesting and useful endeavour, I am looking forward to reading the rest of the parts.

    One point that you make that I am not entirely comfortable with is your blanket emphasis of the importance of a rich domain model. I think that domain driven design is a useful technique (one that I still have a great deal to learn about) but it is not the only way to do software development. Is attempting to build a rich domain model really always the correct way to go if the app is essentially forms over data?

    Just to be clear, personally I favour the approach you are recommending. Given a new project, I will default to building out a rich domain model unless I am specifically given a very good reason not to. If anything I am probably a little too biased and not likely to give this decision as much thought as it deserves. Rich domain models make me -feel good- about the software I am writing.

    However there are very few absolutes in software development and I think domain oriented design is no exception. There are plenty of people out there building and maintaining software effectively and efficiently without an emphasis on the domain model.

    I haven’t looked at the Oxite source code yet, so I am not questioning whether Oxite would benefit from more emphasis on a domain model. What I am questioning is whether you feel comfortable standing by your statements on domain models as being universally true.

    Thanks!

  • http://www.lostechies.com/members/chadmyers/default.aspx chadmyers

    @Moto: Class hierarchies aren’t bad, but from my experience, people tend to prefer class hierarchies and do them even if they’re not needed, and sometimes even when it’s wrong and it becomes a liability. To put it another way, don’t just go stamping out hierarchies for hierarchy’s sake. I would think that MOST of your entities (not all) would derive directly from your domain layer supertype and that’s it.

    @Paul:
    In my experience, there is no such thing as “just a forms over data app”. Every single time (yes, 100%) I’ve tried using one of the Forms over Data-type frameworks, it’s only a quick matter of time before I run into a situation where the framework’s limited validation scenarios are sufficient and I have to start writing a bunch of code to add logic and rules. At this point, I start creating problems and the more I do this (as the features always seem to get more complex, not less complex), the more I start seeing that a model would’ve been the way to go originally.

    Case in point: Fluent NHibernate. While not a FoD app directly, it’s the same kinda thing. It started out real simple: We’ll just write out XML! And now look, now you’d had to spend a bunch of time cleaning up the mess and implementing a semantic (domain) model to fix it.

    True there are few absolutes, but a few I’m willing to state are:
    1.) OO is generally better than procedural for structuring LoB-type programs
    2.) All LoB programs have an inherent domain with complex logic and business rules

    I haven’t spent a lot of time with ADO.NET Dynamic Data, so I’m probably safe to say it’s better than most of its predecessors, but there is a point where even ADO.NET DD cannot handle the complexity of a given domain model and the app should migrate away from it.

    I’m willing to bet that all apps worthy of writing an application for (i.e. that can’t be solved via Excel formulas or something), have deep complexity that no FoD-type framework could ever hope to solve. It may get you up and running in the short term (Good!) but we should be prepared to ditch it and go to a domain model shortly.

    To finish, Oxite definitely can benefit from a rich domain model. There is significant complexity in there to justify effort on a domain model.

  • http://paulbatum.com Paul Batum

    Perhaps this is one of those thing where it can really depend on what sort of sector you work in. I spent the first 5 years of my career at a company that developed many small applications that were mostly data driven. We began to struggle as we took on larger more complicated projects; continuing to apply the same techniques to those complex projects was a significant cause of that struggle. This is where changing our approach to include an emphasis on domain design helped significantly. Turning around and applying that same emphasis on domain design on the small applications worked out fine for us, but I wouldn’t argue it was -necessary- for the small, simple projects.

  • http://Www.sullivansoftdev.com/blog Brian Sullivan

    Excellent post! In particular, I applaud your desire to make this all about code and not about people, and I think you succeeded perfectly. While empassioned tirades may make us feel better, they rarely help a bad situation. Thoughtful critiques like yours, however, can go a long way toward changing things for the better if the right people take them to heart. Thanks for doing this!

  • http://robinclowers.blogspot.com Robin Clowers

    @chad – You mentioned dynamic data, I need to get around to a blog post on this, but I used it on a recent project. It is a lot better than some older RAD stuff, but you can’t build real apps with it unless you want to write a bunch of infrastructure to handle things that DD doesn’t. The big one I ran into is cascading relationships, such as category / subcategory. When you create an item, selecting a category needs to filter the subcategory options. Dynamic data does not have a solution to this. Handling it myself was very ugly, and I ran into some sealed classes, causing me to include a bunch of code from the framework in my project…

  • http://blog.unhandled-exceptions.com Steve Bohlen

    Chad:

    While I tend to agree with just about everything you have said (as a card-carrying member of ALT.NET, a DDD-practitioner, and a long-time user and contributor to NHibernate I tend to come at this with the same preconceptions as yourself), but I have to sort of ask you to reconsider at least some of your criticism that’s leveled at the parts of the data-access strategy in Oxite that are somewhat part-and-parcel of what it takes to try to use (either) Linq2SQL or EntityFramework in as persistence-ignorant a manner as possible.

    Your suggestion that this whole project would be much improved by moving to NHibernate (or any other mature ORM platform for .NET out there, some commercial offerings included) seems really to be an excellent suggestion, but completely unrealistic given the constraints that the Oxite team is near-certain to be bound by. Its very doubtful that any app provided by MS as ‘an example of how to do XYZ’ is going to leverage any non-Microsoft technologies in any manner at all.

    It really seems to me that if the purpose of your reworking Oxite is to demonstrate how “you would approach doing this project free of all the constraints that Microsoft would be under” then I think its reasonable to level criticism against Oxite for getting badly tripped up in the mess that is trying to use Linq2SQL or EF as an ORM when a rich, persistent-ignorant domain model is your goal.

    But if your purpose here is to try to maneuver the codebase for Oxite into a form that shows “the right way that Microsoft could have approached this project and implemented some software engineering best-practices while remaining within their somewhat stringent confines as MIcrosoft employees” then I think that you should proceed with a Microsoft-sanctioned data-access technology and refactor this mess living with those same constraints.

    Either way, I frankly thinik that what you’re attempting to do here will be illuminating for many readers, but IMHO it will have more ‘truth’ to it if you restrain your efforts to work within the same constraints as the Microsoft team would have been dealing with.

    I rather think that for people who CAN use NHibernate (or other non-MS technologies) many of them already understand the shortcomings of the Oxite codebase — the REAL value in what you’re doing would (again, IMHO) be in showing others that are stuck in MS-technology-only worlds how you actually COULD effectively still solve this engineering problem fully within the MS universe of technology building blocks.

    Thoughts?

  • http://www.lostechies.com/members/chadmyers/default.aspx chadmyers

    @Steve:

    My purpose here is to show what “good” is, and what we should be striving for. That doesn’t necessarily mean NHibernate, but at current time I believe it involves a real honest-to-goodness ORM and not Entity Framework or Linq2SQL which have significant and disqualifying lackings.

    If individual teams, now knowing what they should be striving for, make a conscious decision to NOT to do something and incur technical debt or make other things harder because of (whatever reason, time constraint, external requirement, etc), that’s fine.

    It’s up to each team to decide what’s right for them and where they need to compromise and add complexity to satisfy some other need.

    No project is without them, but no guidance could every properly address all the possible combinations of compromise. I believe it’s best to stick with “best” and let everyone decide for themselves.

    I agree with your comments regarding the ones stuck with tunnel vision. Hopefully they’ll see that there are fundamental principles worth grasping and that, in some cases, MS products fall short of this and that there may be better offerings. Sometimes, sometimes not, but there’s value in the research to identify this.

  • Steve

    I don’t know where you got the idea from but Linq to SQL does complete change tracking, lazy loading, handling relations etc.

  • http://blog.unhandled-exceptions.com Steve Bohlen

    @Chad:

    Points well-taken. This is perhaps the essential difference between what you are attempting and what Rob (Conery) is also attempting. Both are (for the reasons you and I are debating) equally valuable for the community to watch.

    In your approach, you are essentially saying “given all that I know about good, sound software engineering practices and given the freedoms to select the technology of choice upon which to build parts of my app, this is how I would produce a project with features like Oxite’.

    Rob seems to be trying to say “given some of the same constraints that the Oxite team labors under, this is an alternative implementation of some of the same underlying technologies that demonstrate that selecting Ling2SQL or EF as the foundation of the DAL doesn’t necessrily *have* to mean the mess that is Oxite’s first release”.

    You are saying “this is the best I can do, free of most constraints” and Rob is saying “this is the best I can do within the constraints I’m given”. I agree with you that both are valuable, but to different groups for different reasons, I think.

    Soldier on; I’m looking forward to the rest of your efforts around this.

  • http://www.lostechies.com/members/chadmyers/default.aspx chadmyers

    @Steve (not Steve Bohlen):

    It doesn’t do change tracking, you have to do it, or at least you have to codegen them to do it. You *must* fire the PropertyChanging even in your properties in order for Linq to SQL change tracking to work.

    Linq to SQL does not do *transparent* lazy loading. They have the EntityRef/EntitySet business which means you have to call something special in order to trigger the lazy load. With full ORMs, it just works transparently with no magic calls and appears to be a normal collection/IEnumerable like any other.

  • http://www.lostechies.com/members/chadmyers/default.aspx chadmyers

    @Steve Bohlen:

    Mostly correct. I might actually try to make an argument that using Fluent NHibernate and NHibernate could’ve got them there faster as they wouldn’t have had to write as much code around persistence and connection management as they did in Oxite. There’s a LOT of code in there that simply doesn’t need to exist and only exists to satisfy Linq to SQL’s deficiencies.

  • Charles Dilberth

    What other examples are there?

    I can think of one, CodeCampServer [1], but it seems like it’s a work in progress and not yet complete. The architecture seems to change each time I visit it.

    [1] http://code.google.com/p/codecampserver/

  • http://www.lostechies.com/members/bogardj/default.aspx bogardj

    @Charles

    Small FYI, CodeCampServer is getting funding from Headspring to release an actual V1. What this means is that the trunk was cleared out, and started from scratch, ground up.

    Which is a good thing, as CCS was built off of some crazy ScottGu laptop version of MVC.

  • If it were good, it would be a product

    Oxite is just the interns at MIX trying to impress and get a full-time job.

    Ignoring it would have been much wiser.

  • Charles Dilberth

    Thanks for the FYI bogardj!

    It would be interesting to see some sort of blog attached to the CCS project explaining the current progress and rationale for the design decisions.

    I’ve ordered the Manning Early Access book on ASP.NET MVC [1] and it seems to use the CCS project as a sample project.

    [1] http://www.manning.com/palermo/

  • http://mdpopescu.blogspot.com Marcel Popescu

    “This necessarily forces all the interesting logic of the domain to be the responsibility of other, perhaps less appropriate, parties which can lead to “service explosion” or “manager anti-pattern”, etc.”

    How do you handle methods like “add entity to repository”, “commit changes”, retrieve a list of entities, possibly filtered by some criteria and so on? I mean, I can’t see Product.GetListOfProducts() being the correct way of doing it… but ProductService.GetListOfProducts() parses just fine.

  • http://www.lostechies.com/members/chadmyers/default.aspx chadmyers

    @Marcel:

    I was talking about logic, not data access. Those are two separate things. Add entity to repository should probably just be done through the repository. Commit changes is likely a Unit-of-work responsibility. Retrieve a list with/without criteria would be a repository responsibility, etc.

    ProductService.GetListOfProducts() might be valid if there were some particular bit of logic that was only appropriate to retrieving lists of products and which didn’t belong either in the repository or the controller.

  • http://mdpopescu.blogspot.com Marcel Popescu

    Thanks for the quick reply, I’m still learning all this stuff.

    I was under the impression that the controller is supposed to be really thin. In my case, the controller only talks to the service and all the logic is in the service – for example, the /Index action only has a couple of lines, calling Service.GetListOfProducts() and then returning the appropriate view. GetListOfProducts() seems to me like a logic thing, not a data access thing (which would indeed be the repository’s problem).

    My architecture right now is something like this: controller asks the service to do stuff (business logic) and then converts the entities that are returned into ViewModels and passes those to the view. Incidentally, this means that I need an Add method in the service, since I don’t access the repository directly from the controller.

    Anyway, I hope you’ll get to writing more on this subject soon – you said this is part 1 :)